[Clip] Judith Heumann from Netflix Documentary ‘Crip Camp’ 00:00 | We wanted to be able to mobilize disabled individuals in D.C to express feelings of the disabled community around the United States. And that in unity, we do have strength and that we must expand the pie that we're fighting from, so that we don't have to fight each other, but that we can all get our adequate services. That's really what this is getting into.

[Clip] Voiceover from Netflix Documentary ‘Crip Camp’ 00:23 | There is a minority in America that has only recently begun to speak up and be heard. They face problems of discrimination and prejudice, in employment, education, transportation, and in just about every other aspect of what society considers everyday life. Until the last few years, they suffered mostly in silence, but that's changing. They have begun to organize and to get politically active.

Sam Proulx 00:57 | Hello, everyone, and welcome to The InclusionHub Podcast. This is your host, Sam Proulx. The recording you just heard was a snippet from the Oscar-nominated documentary 'Crip Camp: A Disability Revolution,' which chronicles the relentless battle waged by members of the disability rights community for equality, accessibility, and inclusion throughout the decades. And the voice you heard belongs to one of the movement’s key advocates Judith Heumann.

Sam Proulx 01:28 | Contracting polio as an infant in the late 1940s in Brooklyn, New York, she and countless others living with disabilities faced institutionalized discrimination permeating every facet of society, from education and employment to transportation, housing, and beyond.

Sam Proulx 01:50 | Using a wheelchair at five years old, she was labeled a 'fire hazard' and denied attendance at her neighborhood school. At nine, she and other disabled students were segregated from able-bodied classmates and relegated to the school basement. At 22, she was denied a teaching job in the New York City Public School System, simply because she was disabled. These were just several of countless inequities pressed upon her and so many others of the disability community in the United States and throughout the world due to their conditions. Yet, instead of caving, she fought back, suing the New York City Board of Education and winning, becoming the first wheelchair-using teacher in the New York City Public School System. Heumann has never stopped fighting back. And in my personal opinion, no introduction, nor barrage of superlatives, nor litany of praises will ever do her justice for what she has done for the disability community, of which I am a proud member. Of course, this will not prevent me from at least trying.

Sam Proulx 03:00 | Judy is an internationally recognized disability advocate, serving in both the Clinton and Obama administrations, at the U.S. Department of Education and State Department, and as the World Bank's first advisor on Disability and Development. She's the recipient of way too many accolades and honors to mention here. She's a pioneer, a leader, a self-professed 'rolling warrior,' rebel, badass, and quite honestly, a bonafide hell-raiser, of the highest order.

Sam Proulx 03:31 | Embodying the ethos of the Disability Rights Movement’s motto and guiding principle, 'Nothing About Us Without Us,' Heumann spearheaded many of its most quintessential actions, leading and joining hundreds of other disabled folks blocking traffic in Manhattan and occupying Federal Health, Education, Welfare (HEW) offices nationwide during the 504 sit-ins to force the passage of critical regulations regarding Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. Their 1977 occupation of the San Francisco federal offices stands as the longest such takeover of a government building in US history. Throughout her many, many, many initiatives spanning decades of activism, she has remained absolutely unwavering in her conviction, passion, and quest for justice in America and throughout the globe. Her must-listen-to podcast and YouTube channel, 'The Heumann Perspective,' through which she quite literally continues to give voices to the otherwise voiceless, is further testament to her unending devotion to equality, and beauty and love for the disability community. We are humbled and honored that she would share some of her insights on this podcast.

Sam Proulx 04:53 | Before I pass the mic to Judy, I just want to remind you all to visit InclusionHub[dot]com for all episodes of The InclusionHub Podcast, a resource directory of businesses dedicated to helping to try and improve digital accessibility and inclusion for all, and to learn about the incredible work of its founding partners who sponsor this podcast. We're brought to you by cloud-based CRM platform Salesforce, HubSpot Diamond Partner Agency Morey Creative Studios, Fable, a leading digital accessibility testing platform, powered by folks with disabilities, where I work as an Accessibility Evangelist, and Be My Eyes, a free app connecting blind and low-vision people with sighted volunteers, which I myself use.

Sam Proulx 05:41 | Now, I also just want to take another brief moment here to underscore the importance of hosting discussions about the issues and topics we cover on this podcast. The truth is that it's impossible, literally impossible, to quantify the full spectrum of discrimination, and bigotry, and hatred, thrust against the disability community throughout the ages, and across the globe. And much of this has manifested in gruesome, gruesome ways, not often reported—or no, more accurately, admitted—by mainstream media. In America in 1907, for example, Indiana became the first state to enact a eugenic sterilization law for folks with disabilities. Yes, you heard that correctly. With the full blessing of the U.S. Supreme Court in 1927, at least 24 other states codified laws legalizing the compulsory sterilization for those deemed unfit in state institutions, including the intellectually disabled. Children with disabilities were also among the first to be slaughtered in Germany by Adolf Hitler prior to his murderous doctrine of mass genocide—programs expanded to include all those with disabilities, its countless victims dubbed ‘life unworthy of life.’

Sam Proulx 07:11 | The important thing to remember when we're talking about accessibility, and the fight for inclusion and for equal rights, is just how recent this is. This isn't something that happened multiple generations ago. This isn't something that happened in the distant past. These are things that happened very recently, that are still going on in some parts of the world. But even in the United States, the discrimination, the sterilization, and the segregation happened, right up from the '40s through the '70s. This isn't ancient history, this is post-World War II. This is what was going on in the background of the Space Race. This is something that is still in living memory and that many of you listening to this podcast were probably alive during all of these events.

Sam Proulx 08:05 | So yes, when we talk about the struggle for basic human rights for the disability community, and the ongoing battle for accessibility and inclusion, there's a lot at stake. And I won't parse my words. It's been a long, heartbreaking, torturous and bloody road forward, paved by countless disabled folks who have died or been killed along the way. And those who continue to suffer and perish. We do this in their names, with a hope of educating and inspiring others, such as yourselves, to help continue the ongoing mission of accessibility and inclusion, for all. So without further ado, here's Judith Heumann, one of my personal heroes, reflecting on the disability rights movement, several key actions, movements and milestones, and the unfinished work still yet to do.

Judith Heumann 09:05 | I'm a 74-year-old disabled woman, I had polio in 1947. And I mention that because it's important for people to get the context in which I and millions of other disabled children and adults were living. It was a time when there were disabled veterans who had come home from the Second World War, numbers of those individuals died previously in the First World War, but because of advances of medicine, people were living, similar to what we see here today in the United States, where medical science is having the ability for people to live longer.

Judith Heumann 09:52 | And so what was going on at that time is disabled veterans were back at home and the federal government had supported the creation of many different disabled veterans groups, one of them being the Paralyzed Veterans of America. And they dealt with veterans who had spinal cord injuries and other types of injuries. And I mention them because they were in chapters around the United States. And they were really one of the leading organizations that was begin[ning] to very aggressively address issues like unemployment of disabled veterans and civilians, lack of accessibility for disabled veterans and civilians.

Judith Heumann 10:51 | And you can see historically, in the 1940s, for example, the creation of the President's Committee on Employment of the Handicapped. And it was led by a gentleman who had lost both of his arms in the war. And he really was the face of the President's Committee for decades. For me, you know, when I had polio, even though my father had been a veteran, he didn't belong to any of the disabled veterans groups, he had shrapnel and things like that, but he wasn't a part of any of those groups. And, you know, like many families, here and around the world, they didn't know other people who had kids with disabilities. And so what they were really having to do was to be creative.

Judith Heumann 11:51 | And I would say that my parents, I think, on this one, my dad, in particular, they had bought a house in Brooklyn, on East 38th Street. Of course, when they bought the place, I hadn't had polio. And so there's a flight of stairs to get upstairs, there was only one bathroom, and the bathroom was upstairs. And so they decided to build an extension on the house. So a bedroom and a bathroom. And to build a big ramp on the outside of the house, so that I would be able to get in and out. I always really marveled about that because they just realized they needed to do it, it wasn't because anybody was giving them counseling. And I think that's what you saw with lots of families, you know, creativity. And a doctor had recommended that I'd be placed in an institution, my parents had decided they wouldn't do that—never told me.

Sam Proulx 12:57 | I just want to pop in here for a split second to highlight what Judy just shared. Her parents refused to send her to an institution—a fate countless other children and adults living with disabilities, unfortunately, did not escape. Now, that's not to say every 'institution' ever established was a horrific place. But it is important to note that the institutionalization of people with disabilities is a practice that spans centuries, from sending us to almshouses and poorhouses, to locking us up in jails and asylums to flat out abandoning us, torturing us, and killing us—societies throughout the ages have dealt with our community in a variety of ways, and not always with the best of intentions. Many such institutions, as those Judy's referring to, were exposed in the 1960s and '70s as lacking even some of the most fundamental necessities. Patients were subjected to abuse and neglect in deplorable conditions, with little to no actual treatment, or even basic care. As Judy points out, the families of disabled loved ones were often the first lines of defense to ensure their proper care. And this included education.

Judith Heumann 14:23 | And so what you were seeing was families that were beginning to really work on what was next for their kids. Now, there was an organization called United Cerebral Palsy, and United Cerebral Palsy only dealt with kids and adults with cerebral palsy and I had polio. And March of Dimes wasn't like many of these other groups, they were primarily working on a cure, a vaccine. And my mom took me to school when I was five—the book, 'Being Heumann,' gives all this information—but bottom line is, the principal said I couldn't go to school there. So I actually did not start going to school till I was nine years old. And then I was in classes only for disabled children.

Judith Heumann 15:22 | Now, that was very typical. The Board of Ed sent a teacher to my house for the first, second, third, and half of the fourth grade, for a total of two and a half hours a week. So you can see that between the '40s and the '50s, '60s, there were changes that were going on, there was a beginning movement to get kids in school, but the laws didn't really come into being until the late '60s, but then real impactful legislation didn't happen until the '70s. And at the same time, I think for me, what was going on was, as I was getting older, it was becoming a parent that I was involved in the neighborhood, you know, kids would go to school, I would stay at home. But when the kids came home, I would go to Brownies, I would go to Hebrew school, I was taking piano lessons, had two brothers younger than me. So, you know, my parents were continuing to try to keep me on a track where I would be able not to be 'handicapped' by my disability. Expectation of employment always was talked about. If anything, my mother said, you know, maybe you're not gonna get married because you have a disability. So you need to go to school, you need to get the education that you need so that you can get a job and earn your own income.

Judith Heumann 17:04 | And the issue of legislation, when I was 15, or younger, wasn't really something that we were, as kids, looking at. We were learning from the Civil Rights Movement. So we were getting an understanding of what other movements were doing. The Equal Rights Amendment was moving forward. But none of these things dealt with disability. So it was continually a growing recognition as we were moving forward, [be]coming teenagers and older teenagers, that all these other movements were moving forward, but disability was not really a part of any of these other communities in a pretty forthright way. And so we were thinking, creating, looking at what we felt needed to happen, but were not in my age cohort, we were not a part of any of the national Washington, D.C. groups, like United Cerebral Palsy, or The ARC, which used to be the Association for Retarded Citizens, but we don't use that word anymore, so now it's The ARC and other organizations.

Sam Proulx 18:27 | As Judy shares, it became more and more apparent that a critical piece of the disability rights equality equation had been missing in the early days of the movement: Mission-aligned groups with disabled people at their helms.

Judith Heumann 18:41 | What was really sorely missing, also, in the '50s and '60s, were organizations that were run by disabled people. Now, there were some of those that were beginning to be created, like the veteran’s group, the Paralyzed Veterans for America, they're always led by disabled veterans, disabled American veterans, blinded Veterans, all those groups always were led by disabled people. But that was kind of the exception to the rule. Because groups like United Cerebral Palsy, Muscular Dystrophy Association, March of Dimes, those groups all were not led by disabled people. That was another very big push that was beginning to happen, that the disability community was recognizing in the '60s, definitely, that the failure for us to be leading these organizations really continued to allow people to think that we weren't capable. And that was a really big issue. You know, women's groups were run by women, NAACP, and all these other groups, they were ran by Black people, Latinos, others, but in the area of disability, it was the exception to the rule when that was happening. And we felt that that was really important because the medical model around disability, you know, not feeling that disabled people could be active spokesperson, that was definitely something that continued to move forward, as the disability rights movement itself got stronger.

Sam Proulx 20:30 | As Judy explains, disability rights advocates were learning from the Civil Rights Movement and other social justice and human rights struggles of the time. When the 1964 Civil Rights Act was passed, a seismic legislative triumph for African Americans and women in the battle against discrimination, it included no provision for those with disabilities. And while the '70s brought even more challenges, the disability rights movement became even more resolute in its mission. They continue to organize, strategize, demonstrate, grow, and expand their coalition, because as I've stated, from the outset of this podcast, disabilities are not relegated to any one subset of society, or race or nation. They are a shared, universal aspect of the human experience, and affect or will affect, us all.

Judith Heumann 21:26 | In 1972, there was a piece of legislation called the Rehabilitation Act of 1972. And President Nixon vetoed it. I was part of an organization in New York called Disabled in Action. It had been created after I was denied my teaching license because I couldn't walk. We sued the Board of Education. And one of the outcomes was the creation of this group, Disabled in Action (DIA). And so it was across disability organizations and when Nixon vetoed the Rehabilitation Act in November of 1972, DIA and an organization called Pride, and another group that was just forming out at Willowbrook School, called Willowbrook Safe School for the 'mentally retarded.' Willowbrook was a very big deal at that point in New York. Geraldo Rivera basically made his name on Willowbrook.

And so, the demonstrations in New York, where DIA, Pride, and this new group from Willowbrook, we shut down traffic on Madison Avenue at 4:30 in the afternoon. And that was, I think, the beginning, not to say there weren't demonstrations like that—in the 1930s there were, there was a physically disabled organization that protested some of Roosevelt's legislation that wasn't inclusive of disabled people. But this was the first time in our generation that this had happened. And it's very much linked to 504 because what was a part of the Rehabilitation Act of 1972, which never came into law, was Title 5, and Title 5, amongst other things, has section 504.

And so what we were learning at that point was that here was this amazing piece of legislation that we had nothing to do with. But it was very clear that it was very important. And Nixon vetoed it. So we had a demonstration on Thursday. We had a demonstration the day before the presidential election. We had no disabled veterans with us the Thursday before the election. So we contacted George McGovern's office and asked him if he could help us find some disabled veterans. And he linked us up with a gentleman named Bobby Mueller, who was in Chicago and he was a disabled guy, but didn't really relate to his disability at that point. The day before the election, the demonstration we had was marching up against traffic on Times Square. And Bobby always talked about how he had met somebody crazier than him when we asked him to do that. But I mean, on a serious note, it was very important that we were at that point really always looking at, how do we make the movement more cross-disability? How do we bring disabled veterans in because there's some issues that are different, but most of their issues were the same as ours? And what happened, obviously Nixon won and he vetoed the law, I believe, twice more.

Sam Proulx 25:29 | Rather than extinguish the flame of revolution among the disability community, Judy explains, the President's chronic kiboshes merely poured gasoline on the already raging fire.

Judith Heumann 25:41 | There was a big demonstration in Washington at the President's Committee on Employment of the Handicapped. And historically speaking, he needed to see that this is where some of the tensions really were occurring because the President's Committee would have like about 1,000 people, mainly employers, not disability rights activists. And we, DIA, Disabled in Action, we saw this gathering as an opportunity for us to push an agenda forward. We led a walkout. And then there was another march, actually, that was organized now with a much larger group of organizations. So United Cerebral Palsy now was involved with the demonstrations. So there was a march from the President's Committee meeting to the Capitol. And I believe some of us slept out overnight because if you look in the film, 'Crip Camp,' and others, you'll see Bobby, myself, and a woman named Diane, and at that point, the Lincoln Memorial was not wheelchair accessible. So that was, you know, some of what we were beginning to look for: What can we be saying to the American public, that is important to them? Where we can discuss how we're not a part of it because of discrimination. And ultimately, the law was signed. And then the government began to work on regulations, which, when went on for a number of years, but Nixon left and Ford became president. Ford refused to sign the final regulation. And that's really the birthing of what happened with the 504 demonstrations.

Sam Proulx 27:52 | The movement became larger, more galvanized, shares Judy, and more and more diversified. Soon, groups representing various disabilities became united under the same mutual mission of greater equality, accessibility, and universal rights, for all. It was a coalition that, once awoken, would not rest until its cries were heard, its protests seen, and its objectives achieved.

Judith Heumann 28:22 | In 1975, there was a national organization started called the American Coalition of Citizens with Disabilities (ACCD). And it was the first national cross-disability organization run by disabled people. And it included groups like the National Association of the Deaf, the American Council of the Blind, National Organization of Paraplegics, and others. And one of their main goals was to have a voice in D.C. of disabled individuals to work on 504 and other provisions of Title 5. So we've been involved across the United States with the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, and developing these regulations. We don't have to get into it. But regulatory process is complex. And it was really important that disabled people were now engaging in that process.

Sam Proulx 29:36 | There was a draft that was put out in the Federal Register, people commented from around the country. And then the regulations were ready to be signed. But that's when Ford said 'no. So when Carter was running, many of us were Democrats and said that we would support him if he agreed that the regulations will be signed as they were, that was very important because between 1973 and 1977, all this work had been done, and it wasn't—they were not just working with the disability community at all. They were working with the lobbyists for the hospital industry, higher education, on and on, all the entities that were going to be covered.

Sam Proulx 30:31 | So it's at this stage in the battle for 504, in my humble opinion, where the ever-influential interests of big money and corporate elites show their shadowy hands. Money buys power, especially in Washington. That's never been a secret. Yet, here we see just how much power it truly wields. We've seen it throughout the ages, and we're living it today. Disclaimer, in case I haven't mentioned this before, I'm Canadian. So I have zero difficulty calling out things in American politics, exactly as they are. Money transcends political parties, ethics, and morals. Here, we have absolutely critical, I cannot stress that enough, critical legislation to help protect people with disabilities against discrimination and inaccessibility, and exclusivity shut down by two Republican presidents. When a Democrat takes office, you might think, then, that perhaps, oh, I don't know, they'd act in the best interests of this long-abused community, who are simply asking for equal rights. But alas, as I stated, in politics, money transcends all. And it took sustained pressure and very public actions by advocates to ensure its eventual enactment. Surprise, Democrats, and Republicans are the same. Hey, I can say these things. Remember, I'm Canadian.

Judith Heumann 32:11 | Section 504 says you may not discriminate against someone with a disability if you are a recipient of federal financial assistance. And so when we agreed to endorse Carter, it was very much, we were saying: We will compromise no more. The regulations are not as strong at all as we would like them. But for myself, definitely, I believe, by and large, the language was the best that we were going to be able to get. So ACCD, at a board meeting in February, passed a motion, which I believe I introduced actually, I was on the board, saying that if the regulations had not been signed by a certain date, that they would be demonstrations around the country. And there were demonstrations in all the federal regional offices, and also in other parts of the country, like Pasadena, because there was an activist down there. And what is important to understand is that in the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area, there's been a lot of community organizing that had been going on.

There was a gentleman by the name of Ed Roberts and he was, he passed away, he was a very important person of note, both in the Bay Area, California, and then over the years in the U.S. and around the world. He was a post-polio quadriplegic, who used a ventilator. And he was given the job by [California] Governor Brown, to head up the Department of Rehabilitation, and the Department of Rehabilitation, amongst other things, administered a law, which actually came about in 1919, and was the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended, which was where 504 and the other provisions were. When he became the director of the agency, he used some of the federal money to create Centers for Independent Living. The first Center for Independent Living was in Berkeley. It started without federal money. And Ed was one of the people who started the center. And when he became the director, he started 10 other centers, which was very unique. Massachusetts and Michigan started a few centers. But in California with the creation of these 10, plus Berkeley, 11, and they were strategically placed across the state, they were very new. But nonetheless, they were community-based organizations, pretty much run by disabled individuals.

Judith Heumann 35:22 | They were the core of what we were doing in the Bay Area. ACCD, the leading umbrella organization, in the Bay Area, we put a committee together and the committee was made up of a number of centers for independent living, but many other organizations, disabled veterans groups, other civil rights groups. And so if you look at the film, 'Crip Camp,' or 'Lives Worth Living,' or the 504 summary from [inaudible], you'll see the amount of work that was being done to make this demonstration, to get the 504 regulations signed without amendment way beyond the disability community. And that was something that was really very important to us, continuing this approach that A) we want non-disabled people to see themselves as, at some point, temporarily or permanently acquiring disabilities, to relate to laws like Section 504, not to something that would benefit another person, but something that could benefit them, their family, their friends. And it's really to expand the coalition. So I would say that when you think about 150 disabled people who were living on the fourth floor of the regional office of Health, Education, and Welfare, it was pretty dynamic.

Sam Proulx 37:10 | Part of the battle for 504, as Judy just mentioned, involved, she and fellow activists, plotting and executing what to this day stands as the longest occupation of a federal building in U.S. history, taking over the Health, Education and Welfare offices in San Francisco, California. Numbering about 150, under constant pressure from government and law enforcement authorities, and enduring many significant hardships throughout their more than two weeks long stay, the group ultimately successfully forced the hand of HEW Secretary Joseph Califano. Heumann and other protesters even showed up at his house. See, what I tell you? Hell-raiser extraordinaire.

Judith Heumann 37:56 | When we had the rally in April of '77, only a couple of us, Kitty Cone [and] myself pretty much, were the only ones who started thinking about staying over in the building. It was pretty spontaneous that we stayed over in the building. And it was really for two reasons. The regional director in San Francisco didn't know what 504 was. His staff didn't know what it was, which honestly, set me off because I had worked for a senator and we knew that there had been meetings in Washington, and in San Francisco, to plan what was happening, and couldn't believe that they knew nothing.

Judith Heumann 38:49 | Another big issue was in Washington, the leadership of ACCD stayed overnight. And they were not given any food or medications. And so we had stayed overnight also. But when they refused to get medicines, to like the head of the National Association of the Deaf, it was an opportune time for us to say, the people in D.C. were starved out, we're not leaving. And so in the beginning, that was kind of the momentum that we were riding on. And because the Bay Area was pretty organized, you know, we were getting support, not pre-planned, but like from the Black Panthers, Safe Way, Delancy St. Many people who live there, they'll know these groups. And I think that was really important and kept the morale up. We had very active committees in the building. We had great support.

There were rallies held outside of the building almost every day with major labor union leaders and other organizations, and then it was decided that a group of us would go to Washington, D.C., to join up with the ACCD leadership in D.C. and to push for the signing of the regs, because obviously, it had to be done in Washington. We've been very fortunate that Congressman Phil Burton and Congressman George Miller had held informal hearings in the building. And then when we went back to Washington, we were meeting all over the place with elected representatives. We met at the White House, we demonstrated outside of President Carter's church. We saw him going in the church, but he left the back door. And I think, you know, another very interesting part of what went on, was that we went to Secretary Califano's house, and we had a minister that was with us. And we did a sunrise sermon with the minister. He was not happy.

Sam Proulx 41:25 | She showed up at his house. Sorry, I just had to interject one last time about that. I just love that part. And as Judy explains, even after all that, and eventually pushing the regulations through—as is, no less—Califano still couldn't bring himself to meet with all those folks who gave and did so much to better life for so many.

Judith Heumann 41:52 | But in the end, as history states, the regulations were signed without a single change. I know there are people within the government agency, Health, Education and Welfare, Califano had pulled together a group of very good people to look at the draft regulations. But you know, in the end, when he signed them, and to this day, he never met with the leadership of these demonstrations, never. The book that I can't find, but it was an autobiography that has a chapter in there about how when we had a demonstration outside his home one evening, myself, and one of the attorneys went up the driveway and Phil went and knocked on the door. And the dog was barking, barking, barking, and he has a chapter in this book about how scared he was that the dog was going to get out and do something. But I think you know, one of the reasons why I talked about him never meeting with the community, is I think he took it really personally. But when you look at civil rights demonstrations, women's rights demonstrations, anti-war demonstrations, in the end, it's very typical that allies get together, you know, and basically make peace. But that never happened. It never happened. But we got—we got what we wanted.

Sam Proulx 43:41 | Yet, while this incredibly important battle for disability and disability rights, was hard fought and won—Section 504 of the 1973 Rehabilitation Act was the first disability civil rights law enacted in the United States—the war was far from over. Section 504 prohibits discrimination against people with disabilities in programs that receive federal financial assistance. Other public services and institutions could still discriminate, as could private industries and businesses. The disability community needed more. We demanded a Bill of Rights specifically for us. The work of Judy and so many others set the stage for the next vital piece of legislation in the struggle for true equality: The Americans with Disabilities Act. That would also require the galvanization of the community and involve veterans of the movement, along with new voices, and the advent and proliferation of computers, and eventually the internet, opened an entirely new front in our ongoing war for accessibility and inclusion, taking the fight from the streets to the web, Judy explains. Also reminding us of just how many other critical participants there are in this ongoing struggle.

Judith Heumann 45:08 | One thing that's so very important about what we've been discussing is that there were so many people involved. It wasn't any one person. There were hundreds and hundreds of people around the United States that were writing letters, that haven't been involved in protests that were speaking up and out about why it was so important that 504 be signed unchanged. And, you know, between 1977 and 1990, the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed, Section 508 on technology came into law. And in 1990, as we all know, technology, computers, etc. were just coming in. You know, there were scientists who had been building these big machines in the '40s and '50s. But really, I think most people never really fathomed what was in fact going to happen, and where we would be today.

And I believe it's a recurring problem, which is, and it's changing, but universities that need to be training designers of technology, are not really including accessibility in what students are being taught. Universities and others have not been rigid in saying, 'We will buy no technology, that's not accessible because it puts us as universities and other entities at risk of being sued,' which is what you see happening in many cases. The stronger our movement gets, the more we are able to be a part of the initiation of projects. So when you look at AI, you look at technology that's being advanced, so that cars and other types of vehicles in the not-so-distant future, will not need to be driven, you know, by a person. So you know, in the past, one would say, 'Well, there will never be a blind bus driver.' But in point of fact, there may well be a blind bus driver, if there is even a bus driver.

Sam Proulx 47:49 | My goodness, such incredible insights, and such an incredible woman. I'm truly in awe and blessed to have been able to share our experiences with all of you. Once again, this is your host Sam Proulx. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for listening. And as always, remind you to visit InclusionHub[dot]com for all installments of this podcast series, more about its founding partners, our sponsors, and much, much more. Learn more about Judith Heumann and her extraordinary life and ongoing initiatives in the battle for true equality, accessibility, and inclusion at JudithHeumann[dot]com. Be sure to pick up her memoirs, 'Being Heumann: An Unrepentant Memoir of a Disability Rights Activist' and 'Rolling Warrior,' and check out her podcast, 'The Heumann Perspective'—where she interviews disability change makers and their allies—while you're there. We'll be hearing more from Judy and other critical voices in the disability community in other episodes. Until next time, remember, a more inclusive and accessible world is a better world.